Mike Industries

The flight back to Utah from the Future of Web Apps Summit was a little better for me, the person in front of me never reclined. However, I do have this problem frequently on the bus. I take a 45 minute bus ride each day, and it makes me absolutely irate when I’m on the bus working on my laptop, and then someone sits in front of me and reclines all the way. I can’t believe how often it happens. Most of the time my reaction is to barrage the back of his seat with random kneeing into the back of his seat and/or move if another seat is available.

You wanted to work. I usualy like to sleep on a plane, but I cannot without reclining the seat first (actually even sitting straight around two hours is uncomfortable for me).

Taking into account that reclining the seat is allowed and perfecly legal :-), I would like to know why your desire to work overcomes my desire to sleep?

For short flights, in daylight, I absolutely agree that if you’re not planning on having a kip, then there’s no need to recline your seat.

I had the same problem on a long haul to Singapore in April. The bloke in front reclined his seat 20 minutes into a 12 hour flight and then didn’t sort it out until we were about to land. I could have just asked him, but preferred to sit there seeting and stewing for whole duration of the flight. You know, do the decent thing and not just ask him but devise new and inventive ways to annoy him. It didn’t work. He didn’t budge.

I used to get the same sort of thing on the tube everyday to work in London. I just could not handle the invasion of my personal space at that time in the morning. So, in an effort to get people off my back (literally), I made myself all pointy (knees, elbows, knuckles, fingers) which did the trick nicely.

Of course, it’s not the bloke who’s at blame here, but the airline for not giving enough legroom, or the seat designers for getting it really wrong!

My thoughts are much along the lines of yours. If there is noone behind me or it’s a small child, then I’ll recline. Otherwise, I simply sit in the small, I’m-not-paying-for-more-than-coach seat and read a book…even if the person in front of me isn’t as considerate. It’s just common courtesy to respect other people’s space.

So why didn’t you just ask, instead of kicking the seat every 20 mins, making him (probably) think “what a jerk”?

But yes, as a guy over 196cm (over 6″5.5′) I know how valuable chair space is.

Its different physical abilites thae. I can work, I have 15″ mbp, I never ever use tray, I always use my lap - this just suits me. When the seats back is straight I can sleep, but I cannot place my head comfortably - the thing starts to “fall down” when i’m asleep - and I will wake up after every 5 minets or so. Not good.

Sounds passive aggressive to muck with the drumming and knee kicking. Buy the guy off, ask him nicely, or just sit and take it like a grown-up. Kicking the guy’s seatback is unnecessary and probably doesn’t communicate that well. Make an issue or don’t make an issue.

I was going to sayy what JJM above said. Ask, repeatedly, if he would please put the seat up so you can work.

I was also going to say that I know abouut chair space, as I’m 6′2″ and the size of many football players.

Well, I don’t usually recline at all, unless I have a very good excuse for it, and if I do (not having slept for over 20hrs, for instance) I only recline partially.

I will mention that I’ve seen some seats recline accidentally without their ocupants intending for it to do so (yes that was me once); I’ve seen this happen on more than one flight though. On some aircraft the “recline” button is easy to bump; perhaphs it was accidentally reclined? Did the stewardess have to tell him to un-recline it at the end of the flight, or did he do that on his own?

Mike, I couldn’t agree more. If I had more money and time, I would actually produce a short PSA on this issue. People need to know.

On a recent flight from New York to KC (home for me) the @hole in front of me reclined with very little warning - which gave me no time to move my MacBook Pro back toward me. The result? A nice sized dent on the top of my MBP! You see, when you lower the tray and put your laptop out, your screen naturally fits in the void where the tray was. When the guy in front of you reclines, the space from tray to the top of the void reduces - thus crushing anything sitting in the void.

So, if anyone would like to help fund the PSA, let me know.

While I agree with your courtesy rules I think the actions you chose made you the real asshole. If the guy wasn’t sleeping and he put his seat back you should have said something.

As far as putting the seat back helping someone get to sleep it most certainly does.

As far as your “right” to get work done vs. his “right” to be comfortable I think it is BS to think that you even have a right to get work done. It is certainly useful to get work done and it sucks not to be able to but it isn’t your right.

One thing you should think about are his possible situations.
* He could have unknowingly put his seat back.
* He could have a back/knee/whatever problem.
* And of course he could just be an asshole.

The point is never you never asked, instead you spent two hours stressing yourself out and acting like a child. If he wasn’t an ass and you politely said something you could have had an 1′45″ of pleasant flight. If he was an ass, you could ask the flight attendants for assistance.

Anyways, in all likelihood he probably was just an ass, but you don’t know because you chose not to act like an adult/ceo/man. Talking to someone does not have to be a confrontation. Just because you are upset doesn’t mean the other person is.

On a flight from Vancouver to Toronto in January, I put my arm on the chair in front of me… I think the guy in front of me just figured his chair was broken…

I will definitely agree with you that the guy was a jerk. However, the real fault is with the airlines.

They know their seats are miserable for average or larger sized people to have to sit in for more than a few minutes at a time. Heck, they aren’t even comfortable when there’s nobody beside or in front of you! Ergonomic, they are not!

The cheap “fly anywhere for $99″ days are long over and it’s time the passengers spoke up! We are already virtually strip searched, questioned like criminals and humiated just to get to the plane, and then packed in like sardines once we get there.

I say, lose a couple of rows of seats, give us back our full 24 inch-wide seats and let us have a little breathing room!

While I actually love flying, I still have to take a Valium just to get on a plane because I can’t stand to be in such close proximity to strangers for such a long period of time. If I don’t take it I’ll likely have a panic attack at 30,000 feet, and believe me, that’s no fun for anyone.

Oh, and I can’t sleep on planes, either.

Interesting topic.

I always put my seat back on an airplane, as my back and neck feel much more comfortable in that position.

I have never been bothered by the person in front of me putting their seat back, so it wouldn’t have occurred to me that this could be a source of inconvenience for someone behind me.

Now that I understand the laptop dilemma, I’ll try to remember to take a glance behind me before putting my seat back, in the future. If there are enough empty seats on the plane, however, I would assume all this is a moot point: You can have your laptop and I can have my recliner.

Interesting that you would resort to kicking his seat, etc. Offhand, it strikes me as significantly more inconsiderate than what he did, in terms of being obviously and intentionally rude. :-)

If push came to shove, my hunch is that an airline attendant would tell you that his right to recline trumps your right to work.

In any case, it sounds like you have spotted the makings of a niche market in the airline industry — namely, airlines that actively encourage courtesy toward laptop users, or provide better physical setups for using a laptop.

I’m 6 foot 1 and I hate it when people lean back!!! I usually only lean back if it’s a flight at night and I’m trying to go to sleep. But if I sensed someone wanted me to put my chair up I would do it.

What bugs me most is when the seat leans back on it’s own, and flight attendants are like “Sir please put your seat up”. And you have to lean forward off the seat to keep it up.

One time on a flight, I had my 15″ PB on the tray table so I could watch some TV shows (in-flight television is pretty lame these day) when the guy in front of me jerks his seat back into the recline position.

The screen had been angled away from me for better viewing and I was caught by surprise as the screen became trapped between the tray and the seat. In a panic I was able to remove the laptop without an damage.

Word of warning, if you’re going to use a laptop on a tray table, don’t position it too far back on the tray or if you do, make sure the screen is angled slightly toward you to avoid what could be a disaster for your machine.

I took my revenge for all the pain in the ass flight experiences I’ve had by nearly smacking Muriel Hemingway in the face with my carry-on whilst boarding a recent flight. I have no idea how exactly this may have balanced the power, but somehow, in the cosmic scheme of things, it felt right.

…Issued random kicks and kneejerks into the seatback every 20 minutes or so just to interrupt his train of thought, whatever it was

Your efforts were probably in vain. I don’t think the kind of guy who reclines his seat and sits forward most of the flight, would actually have a train of thought to be interrupted!

I don’t agree at all.

On a plane, you have a right to put your seat back. It’s part of your space.

Once I was trying to sleep and the guy behind me physically prevented me from putting my seat back. Who is he to say that I cannot put my seat back?

Bottom line is if you really care, move up to the economy plus area. Pay for it. But don’t tell me I can’t use a feature of my chair because you’re not willing to pay for the extra room you seem to demand.

Truely annoying, I agree. Are you flying first class? I always fly coach and I find my 12″ powerbook to be just barely adaquate (I usually have to put it on my lap and still quite cramped…but usable).

Also, I recline my seat based on if the person in front of me reclines. I therefore gain that precious 20% back.

I think that it’s a more clear-cut case when considering the case of a tall person as opposed to the case of a person trying to get work done, as the tall person doesn’t really have a choice with respect to how much space they use. I see reclining for comfort as having approximately the same priority as someone wanting to get work done, which doesn’t really help in coming to a conclusion.

That said, as someone who has a bit of a phobia when it comes to “being in the way,” I never recline unless there is no one in the seat behind me. While it’s a touch easier to fall asleep when reclined, I figure that that person’s legroom and ability to work is more important than a small increase in my ability to sleep well.

I don’t think that short flights during the day really matter, though. I succumb to the white noise on airplanes and fall asleep almost instantly on any flight—even when taking a sub-hour shuttle between Boston/New York/Washington. Short flight, long flight, day flight, night flight; I’m sleeping.

Your individual case is probably a bit different, since he apparently wasn’t really using his additional space with good reason. In your case, he was just an asshole.

As a person that is 6′6″ I normally try to request exit row seats, as they normally have more leg room and don’t have to deal with the dreaded reclinonator that usually sits in front of me.

I remember one flight that was only a couple hours from Atlanta to Boston where my knees were actually bruised up from a guy wacking his chair into me.

While I understand the persons right to recline, many flights have cracked down on ‘oversized’ people (for which I am one) and made them buy extra seats to accomodate the comfort of other passengers and I understand and respect that.

However, tall people really can’t “shrink” and I can’t much pay for a seat in front of me and have them take it out for the flight, can I?

I’m a million-mile flyer so I have some persepective on this. Flights have been mostly long-haul (transcontinental and transoceanic) and it is definietly a PITA when that seat in front of you flies back into your space.

I mostly read or snooze on those long flights (I get distracted too easily to try any kind of work). When the food comes around I usually move into the aisle so that I’m facing the person in front as ask (kindly) if he or she would mind putting it upright during meal service. That usually gets the job done. If it doesn’t, I politely ask the flight attendant to mention it.

If I’m going to snooze and want to recline, I usually mention it to the person behind me so it’s not a total slam-bang shock.

I wasn’t always so polite, though. For a while I was on the SFO - O’hare run. I broguht along a piece of wood that I’d crafted that had notches in both ends: One that slipped into the solid part of my seat’s frame, the other stuck into the solid part of the upper seat frame ahead of me. Sure, the FA gave me funny looks and row-mates even asked how I had fashioned it. One guy nearly busted me in the chops when we got off in O’Hare one time so I sorta got religion.

I always recline my seat, as I usually sleep on flights. I know that some airlines have more leg room in seats on the last third of the plane. If you’re goign to be working on the plane, you might want to check and see if the further back seats have mroe space.

Truthfully, I would have never even thought that you wouldn’t be able to work. I fine it funny that the man could have unknowingly been annoying you, and yet you were trying to do all kinds of things to annoy him. He was being innocent and may not have even known he was bothering you, but your actions were fare from innocent. :)

Is it discourteous to recline one’s seat?

I don’t think so. (But it would be better to check first, and be like Tod.) Here’s my reasoning: the reclined-seat situation is very inconvenient for laptop use, but for most normal use it is OK. It’s easy to think that reclining one’s seat is just a given, and not particularly inconveniencing. (I hate being in the way and making other people uncomfortable, and I’ve just never considered this an issue. Now that you’ve brought it to my attention, I will consider it.)

Since the inconvenience here is (let’s presume) unintentional, it is probably worthwhile to point out your problem to your fellow passenger. That course of action is difficult—it seems like very difficult advice to follow. There is a strong impulse to respond in kind, which is another way of continuing the cycle of abuse you mention above, Mike. But the real advantage to asking isn’t the moral one; it’s just that asking will be more effective in solving your problem.

As for the car stereo thing, well, in some places you’re not allowed to play your stereo as loud as you please, even just driving around town. And obviously you’re not allowed to park your car outside someone’s house all night and blast your stereo, unless your name is John Cusack and the song is “In Your Eyes.” So we do have some courtesy codified in our society. Good for us.

The takeaway from all this is that on public transportation, the plane, the bus, etc., and in other public spaces, we have the choice to decide that we care about other people’s comfort and convenience as much as our own. In this microcosm, you both tried to make life unpleasant for each other—and succeeded.

I like the broad stroke comparisons between people who recline their seats and people who have loud car stereos or hum loudly during flights. In what way is either of these like reclining a seat? I don’t know either, but I’m told it has something to do with people exercising their “rights”. I’m surprised no one mentioned that reclining a seat is like flag burning, they’re basically the same thing.

While we’re making ridiculous equivalencies in order to justify being annoyed about something frivolous, let’s try some more. Here are some future posts and some example replies to get us started.

–I can’t stand it when people use the airline provided bathrooms.
“I can’t get any work done when people keep getting up to pee. Why didn’t they go before they got on the plane?” “I bring crutches on the plane and pretend I can’t walk so I don’t have to get up to let people into the aisle.”

–I can’t stand it when people watch the airline provided television.
“I can’t get any work done when someone has their annoying TV going next to me. It’s too distracting.” “People who watch TV are assholes.”

–I can’t stand it when people use airline provided light in order to read.
“When I get on the plane, I take the bulbs out of all the lights around me.” “I just want to sleep and the light is annoying me, why can’t everyone just recline and sleep like me?”

–I can’t stand it when people type on their laptops next to me.
“Hey I’m trying to sleep, can’t you see I’ve reclined? I don’t want to listen to your clackety keyboard for the rest of the flight.” “I carved a bat out of wood and bring it on planes. I hit any nerds I see with it. I wasn’t always so polite though.”

(Editor’s Note: It appears once again that some people don’t understand the difference between “rights” and “etiquette”. None of the ridiculous examples you made above cause any real inconvenience or discomfort so your point — if it exists — is lost.)

I initially thought “carved a bat out of wood” meant N. carved the animal, not the hitting device, which would have been a great line. :)

If you want to do business on the plane, there is a special service provided just for you - business class. Spring for an upgrade and you should have plenty of room to do your work, regardless of what the guy next to you, in front of you, or behind you decides to do with his own space. If you really can’t afford it, request to be placed in an exit row, where you will have a bit more room.

Personally, I find the upright seat position horribly claustrophobic, on any flight, and always put my seat back. In my (pretty extensive) experience, nearly everybody else does the same. Your behaviour described above is appalling. You are a paying customer, just like anybody else on the flight. You do not get to act like a child and throw a tantrum when somebody else does not conform to “your” rules.

Sorry to be harsh, but I just completed a 30 hour trip on planes crammed full of Baptist missionaries (quite possibly the lowest life form on the planet), so I’m a bit grumpy myself.

#35 regarding the missionaries:
Now now. Unless they were all tryiing to perform a spontaneous “save” and “rebirth” on you, I’d hope that they weren’t behaving like some “regular” folks on planes I’ve flown.

However, if you’re talking about the Christo-fascists that are trying to recreate the USA into their image of right and wrong, then I absolutely agree.

But we digress… :-)

I don’t know if you’re aware but the seats next to emergency exits are locked and can’t be reclined. So seating next to them would allow you to work without any hassle. I belive that the seats that are locked are the ones right in front of the emergency exits and the immediately next row, before and after.

Ze Frank did a bit about the same subject recently that you may find a little cathartic. He also suggests that the seats should recline by sliding forward so that the only person inconvenienced is you, which I thought was a stunningly good idea.

Maybe instead of having the tables on the back of the seat in front they could be stored in the side of the seat, inside the arm for example, then lifted verticaly out and hinged to a horizontal position. Might solve the problem of your laptop lid getting crushed when the guy in front leans back without warning.

There does seem to be a market for Discreet Knee Defenders, designed to fit in with the look of the aeroplane and go unnoticed by flight attendants. Would saving bringing your own carpentry a la Tod (comment 28)

I broguht along a piece of wood that I’d crafted that had notches in both ends

You could have a whole range, individually tailored to each airline!
Just remember me if the idea takes off. :)

My point was that the airline explicitly provides the feature which you find annoying. Not everyone finds it quite as annoying. I pointed out other features of flight which an airline provides which some people might find annoying.

I was also mocking the extreme solutions which many of your commenters seem to recommend and which you seem to condone. The fact that you guys seem to think that using devices which you feel the need to hide from the flight attendant are somehow okay, but people who recline are somehow breaking some unspoken rule which demands vigilante justice is borderline insane.

To go back to what you seem to believe is your main point: the ability to recline is annoying to everyone and so are cars with loud stereos. I think the main point is that you find reclining as annoying as cars with loud stereos. I do not. I do not think most people find reclining chairs and loud stereos at the same level as annoyance. I think this example is ridiculous. I think a more accurate example which would hopefully help to put your viewpoint in perspective would be that people who recline their chairs are as annoying as people who drive past your house. I don’t think most people like having cars drive past their house, but usually we just accept that’s the way it is, and even occasionally drive past other people’s houses. They don’t normally stand on their lawn and throw eggs at passing cars, which is what I hear being recommended here.

Isn’t it called first class? You pay more for more space. They make money by cramming you in. On many airlines they have front row seats, take one. It also places you nearer the entrance/exit.

I think asking if they mind if they are no obviously sleeping is good. You might also ask the flight attendant if there is another place.

I have to say I think your random knee kicks and other irritating behavior is crossing the line of courtesy as well.

I often recline to nap in a car, seldom on a flight to be honest, but it makes the difference between your head rolling forward and laying back so you can sleep.

Wow, I find it very childish that you went out of your way to inconvience the guy in front of you for reclining. What’s next, you going to punch the guy next to you for eating his peanuts?

I always recline my seat when I fly (which isn’t often, but is usually far). When I fly, the only thing I worry about is my comfort. I show up a few hours early to the airport to be first in line for the exit row seats. I bring my own pillow, ipod, and book, and I recline and relax or sleep.

If I had you behind me kicking my seat, because I was usually a feature that was provided to me by the airline? I’d tell the flight attendent I saw you stick a shiv in your sneaker.

(BTW, your car radio example doesn’t work. There are actual laws about how loud a car radio can be played, so it’s not just inconsiderate, it’s against the law. Not like getting comfortable on a plane.)

I think the point that most people seem to be missing is the guy reclined and then didn’t use the space. If he was going to take a nap, fine. But he sat forward for most of the trip. So he deprived Mike of space for no reason. That’s extremely rude.

That said - kicking the back of his seat wasn’t the best course of action. Someone being rude is no reason to sink to their level :)

With the compact seating arrangements in most flights today I think the recline function should be removed entirely. There is no need for it on domestic flights and it iritates me when others have no consideration for the person behind hem.

You would think that the engineers that design these planes nowadays could make the seat rise as it reclines so that you are in a vertical position more than a hirizontal recline. Lets face it; most folks that recline are not looking to lay down, they are looking for more space. The extra couple of inches from flipping the seat back makes them feel in control of there space.

I’m with you, Mike. I don’t care if reclining functionality is “pre-installed” in an airplane. That doesn’t excuse discourteous use of said functionality. There are very few planes in operation with adequate leg room. As a 5′10″ woman, on most planes someone reclining means my knees get bruised. I’m not afraid to ask someone not to recline their seat (and have done so and put up with a few scathing glares). I don’t see why their comfort trumps mine.

So, some seat etiquette:

1) At the least, give me some warning so I can adequately protect my knees.
2) Better yet, poke your head around the seat and ask if it’s okay. If I’m not going to use my tray or plan to sleep as well, then I have no problem with someone reclining in front of me. As noted in #1, I will also have warning to save my knees.

ha, I just hung out with Virtual Stan (aka Jason Santa Maria) last night! I’ve been traveling a lot lately and what I do is push back on the seat, when I sense a recline about to occur, and convince the person that their seat is broken by either playing dumb or saying, “it’s broken.”

I don’t see the reclining as an offence: the airlines give you the possibility, you should be allowed to use it. And if everybody does, it doesn’t take up more space, but does make everyone more comfortable. I haven’t tried to work on a laptop, tho. But if you have a problem with anybody in your surrounding (and that will stay so for a couple of hours), talking is usually a better sollution than random kicks in the back. If somebody would complain, I would put my seat back up. Not if he’d kick me a couple of times first, tho :).

I’m 6′3″ and I hate having my knees bruised. On the other hand, I’ve also got lower back problems, and reclining the seat makes the flight much more comfortable. I usually grab one of those little airline pillows on the way in to add some extra lumbar support. If I don’t/can’t recline the seat at least a little, the upper part of the seat squishes into my shoulder blades. Plus, I’m too tall to rest my head on the seatback so unless I can recline it a little my neck starts hurting from the strain, too.

If someone’s behind me, I’ve actually turned around and asked if they don’t mind if I recline. To date, no one’s ever refused. But what if they did? How would I balance their need/desire for space with my need/desire for comfort?

Part of the problem, of course, is the uniform - and woefully inadequte - design of coach-class seats that those of us unable or unwilling to pay First Class fares have to endure.

So here’s an idea: Non-uniformity!

Redesign coach class seating to accomodate a broad range of body types/space usages. Some wider seats for heavier or bigger people, some shorter and skinnier for kids or smaller people. Perhaps a few rows esp. for laptop users. While we’re at it, how about a “quiet section” for those who want to sleep! Not everyone can be accomodated, of course, but wouldn’t a large majority be able to find a comfortable place for themselves? In any case, I doubt it would be worse than the current one-size-fits-all model.

Till that happens, of course, we’re still stuck with the main issue of what constitutes polite behavior in civil society. Is it mere refusal to give offense? How about a willingness to absorb offense without retaliation? Is there a limit to this? At what point does courtesy become the unhealthy enabler of rudeness?

I suppose these would be my options, in rough chronological order:

1. Politely ask the person behind me if they don’t mind if I recline my seat.
2. If they refuse, politely explain how painful for me it is if I can’t recline.
3. If they still refuse, politely suggest that we explore some sort of compromise, where both parties get something (only a half-recline?)
4. If they still refuse, politely ask a flight attendant for, if not intervention, a suggestion of other options.
5. Move to another seat.

I’m a total recliner. If everyone on the plane were to recline, there’d be the same amount of room for each passenger (except perhaps those in the front and back rows), and everyone would be more comfortable. BTW, I think you’re seriously exaggerating about the level of difficulty using your powerbook with the seat reclined in front of you. I flew over 100,000 miles per year for several years with my 15″ powerbook and I never had a problem opening/using it with people reclining in front of me. Some of the airlines I flew had much less room between seats than our US-based airliners commonly have (such as Alaska, who you flew back with), and I was still able to get the laptop open. Yes, sometimes it’s a little harder to type, with your tray pulled toward you all the way, but it’s doable and each person is well within their right to use the reclining function provided to them by the airline for convenience and comfort.

Sadly I live in a country where I don’t get to commute by air that much because I love to fly. I don’t get to commute a good distance for meetings, conferences etc. much at all in fact, but here’s hoping that that side of the business life will get on soon.

I have done a lot of travel on the trains here in Britain however (and I lived!), and I have to say that I agree with you. I personally keep the seat upright and mush my legs up against the back of the seat in front while reclining down into my seat. It’s probably weird, but I find all kinds of comfy positions like that and love long trips.

I also find that I can’t use my laptop, but that’s mainly because you would get mugegd right there and then around these parts. Still… One day…

Mike, that drink scares me being too close to your mac!
A little turbulance and it’s adios powerbook.

Time of day plays a big part in my judgment. If it was an overnight or early morning flight, I’d be more inclined to recline. Otherwise I try not to bother the people behind me in hopes karma grants me the same situation as them.

As is shown by statements from Jeff L like “When I fly, the only thing I worry about is my comfort”, we live in a society of varying levels of courtesy

Did you ever stop to consider that in the relationship of you and the guy in front of you, you were by far the less couteous? Perhaps the guy leaned forward because you were kicking his seat!

And, if I’m flying from Manchester, NH to San Diego, CA or Austin, TX, and I’m on a plane for 7 hours, why the hell shouldn’t I have the right to be comfortable?

I’d say I’m MORE courteous because I’ll gladly let the person in front of me recline (as they usually do).

You didn’t have to use your laptop. You could have easily reclined and relaxed for the flight. Basically you are simply saying that the gentleman in front of you should be inconvenienced simply so you are not.

We do live in a society of varying levels of coutesy. However, between the person reclining or the person kicking their seat, you’re way lower on that totem pole!

Calvin above got it correct - if everyone simply reclined, there would be no problems at all. Why wouldn’t someone take advantage of the extra comfort? The only people who really get screwed there are the folks in front of the exit row and those in the back of the plane.

Mike, as someone coming in right around 6′9″ I can assure you that yes, it was painful to fly those flights on Alaska down and back from Seattle for the conference. I noticed it right away before jumping to an open emergency exit row spot.

As for Calvin’s comment, I say toss out 100,000 miles of experience. When you’re his size, it just doesn’t matter. I’ve flown a fair amount and have always had problems with the recline. If I’m in a particularly bad seat people can’t even move it back. My knees are already jammed up against the seat in front of me so it’s like a built in knee defender without having to worry about packing space. (As you can see I’m looking for the silver lining here.)

I’ve pulled the “excuse me could you not recline” card a few times but you’re right, without the standing up and almost hitting the ceiling when you stare down at the guy it just doesn’t have the same impact.

While it’s certainly not reasonable to make flippant comments about baptist misionaries, I don’t see how equating seatback reclining to child abuse is even remotely an acceptable analogy. I get the point, but, wow, you’re both out of line.

On that note, I’ll just say that I think the main point has very little to do with the guy in front of you. This is about the airline.

As a plane goer, I assume that the airline is courteous enough to leave room for the person behind me if I were to recline. Bad assumption, apparently, but I have never had this issue with my laptop when someone reclines in front of me, so I would assume the same for the person in the rear. I have also never had anyone ask me if it was okay if they reclined and never expected it of anyone. And I have never had an issue eating while the person in front of me was reclined. And I don’t fly business class. (I read the thread. Trying to follow up on everything here. This is exhausting.)

I think the correct tact would have been to tap the guy on the shoulder and comment about how the airline obviously screwed you by putting you in the as yet unheard of toddler row. Hopefully he would have excused himself and done the right thing. Regardless, in my opinion the airline is at fault, not the oblivious customer. They should be clear about space constraints and confirm whether you intend on using a laptop or writing when you fly. They should also inform their customers that the row behind them is not as forgiving as the already cramped one they’re in (but who would believe that?)

Anyway, there’s no point in arguing with you Mike, because you’re far too bitter about this whole affair. I’ll keep your sordid tale in mind for my next flight and be sure to avoid Alaska airlines, if possible. Not being able to fit a 12″ doesn’t bode well for any level of comfort.

That said, with karma piqued at the negativity of this thread, I’m sure you guys will both end up in this row on your next flight. ;-)

Peace.
Lee

(Editor’s Note: I agree with all of that. And the child abuse analogy is obviously not serious. It’s the “breaking the chain” part that is salient here.)

Speaking as someone who is a) 6′3″ and needs every inch of space on a plane, and b) suffers from back pain sitting in a seat that’s too upright, I’m going to recline my seat from the second we start to level out after take off until I’m asked to put it back upright on approach. I’ll put it up for the meal service, but that’s it.

Random knee jerks will result in my having a quiet word with the flight attendent saying “I think the guy behind me has some kind of mental problem and keeps kicking my seat like a 6 year old. Is there anything you can do?”

And politely asking me to put the seat back upright will get an equally polite explanation of why I can’t, unless you’re willing to compensate me for the 24 hrs of back pain (more if it’s a long flight) that I’ll have coming to me.

If you need to work that badly, you should shell out for a business class seat.

I still think we’re all missing the point, which of course is… which seats are better engineered and more reliable? Japanese-made, American-made, or European-made?

;)

I’ve got to be honest. I think your attitude is sort of unreasonable. You should take the view that yes, on 20% of the flights you get screwed and be thankful that it only happens 20% of the time. Nuff said. Instead you use your non-scientific poll to deride your detractors. We all need to get along on flights. People on airlines these days come from all corners of the world… your seat mate could have just made a 17 hour flight connect from Asia, he could be tall, fat, computer geek, overworked website owner, DJ after a 3 day music festival needing an afternoon nap, he could have back problems or neck problems. Who knows what the reason would be to choose to recline or not? But what I can tell you is that on a plane load of people you’ll run the spectrum on what people think is “right”. Did you ever think it might be truly annoying to the person who chooses to recline to have you tap tap tapping on the keyboard for 2 hours? The tray table is connected to his chair you know. What would you do if someone asked you to sit with your knees angled slightly to the side because your long legs bumping the seat constantly annoyed them. I have had this problem before trying to sleep on planes. I would never think about turning around and asking the other passenger to inconvenience themselves just to make my flight more comfortable. This is the situation we are all placed in. We aren’t guaranteed sleep, comfort or a convenient work space. Just a ride from point A to point B. If I want premium comfort I save my miles and upgrade. You’ll never find the right answer. Your real problem is with the airlines. If you really need to work why not pony up the dough and just buy the seat in front of you? That certainly wouldn’t cost $3500.

You should try SeatGuru. It sounds like you got a particularly bad row. Apparently every plane on every airline has some rows which are worse and some which are better. On seatguru you can find out which is which before you pick your seat when you buy your ticket. It has almost every airline and each plane they fly.

P.S. I didn’t have time to read all the comments so I hope this hasn’t already been mentioned…

Dude, I’ve had the worst experience with reclining neighbors.

I was watching a movie on my new lappy when the guy in front of me reclined. The screen was angled just so the reclining seat compressed the screen between the table tray and the little ledge where the table tray folds up into, and shattered the screen.

Broken screen, brand-new laptop, and there’s not much I can do. I can’t yell at the guy, and it didn’t feel right asking him to pay to fix it (not like he would’ve anyways).

To make it worse, the dude was on crutches, so when we landed, he asked me to haul his luggage down from the overhead bins. I was fuuuuuming.

I’m 100% in alignment with Andy C. above, right down to being 6′3″.

I’m going to recline because it does me a material — and necessary, in my belief — amount of good. All of these caveats about time of day and length of flight are irrelevant. Yes, I recline in part to help me sleep (and yes, it does help), but I recline primarily for my comfort — I feel the pressure released from my back in direct proportion to my reclining.

I’m sorry that it might do you a material amount of bad, but I don’t feel as though I am at fault for that, I feel that the airline is, for not providing sufficient space in general.

At the end of the day, some people have big problems with reclining on demand, and some people, like me, think that it’s OK and also, I should note, *have no problem with people reclining into them*. There’s a clear difference of opinion. The people who go out of their way to do things like knee the back of chairs are the ones actively being dicks.

I don’t think the poll is foolproof, either, as it measures behavior when the discussion is about etiquette.

Im stunned to find so many people commenting on this post to blame Mike for the aggressive way of handeling this. It seems like a lot of you think it justifys the meaning of this post:

To take others peoples comfort into consideration when you recline! It’s not about your right, and tt’s not about the need! It’s about takeing other people into consideration!

Reading this post almost makes me angry. Not only on those people saying it’s their “rights” to do recline, but also to a few of those of you who say you do it because your tall. Being tall have nothing to do with careing about other people. Careing doesn’t have anything to do with if you get to recline or not. It doesn’t have anything to do with you needing to recline!

I find it hard to belive that so many people can fail to see this. Even the example with the carstereo. So many people seem to think this is about their rights/needs to do things..

Martin:

I don’t exactly get it — if it’s not about needing to recline, but only about caring about other people, why do they even offer the option at all? I take it you feel the recline button is there to provide you an opportunity to feel good about taking other people into consideration?

The bottom line is, if you use the recline just because you can, you’re a jerk. If you use it because you need to, you’re fine. If you use it because you find it uncomfortable without it, then you are probably like most of us.

I personally recline either if I want to try to sleep (usually before a flight I’ve stayed up all night packing) or if the guy in front of me reclines, because I am 6′1″ and feel especially cramped with someone reclining in front of me. In this case, I figure the guy behind me can recline as well if he wants to.

The reclinging hasn’t got anything to do with it. It’s about the thought you give it when you recline (or every other thing you do for that mather). If you simply recline, without giving it any thought, then you havne’t thouht about the other people around you. If you do, then you will probably go about it the way you find best.

For the reclinging: If you do it just because you can doesn’t mean you’r a jerk. That would depend on if it effects other people around you, and what effect it got on them. If you recline because you need to, you’ll be a “jerk” if you just recline without even bother to think about the person behind you (read the comment about broken laptop ^). The fact that you didn’t acctually mean to isn’t the important thing, it’s about you placing yourself above everybody else. If you recline because you find it uncomfortable without it, then you should still give your action a thought.

Given the example where the laptop screen got destroyd, it doesn’t mather WHY the person reclined, but HOW he did it.

It’s not about reclineing - it’s about everyday-behavior..

This is why I always sign up for an exit row. You get all the legroom you want, and in an emergency you’re the first one out. Win-win situation!

I hate this post and discussion. What the f@ck is the matter with you people?! Mike, shame on you for all your talent and brains! Airplane seats and bickering. There are real problems and discussions that need to be made. You of all people, who shame reporters for inproper reporting. Wouldn’t it be nice if we all could have this much passion for the military industrial complex problem. ( see= http://www.americanempireproject.com/bookpage.asp?ISBN=0805077979_

It flames me to no end when the top talent of our country wastes premium resources on celebrity justice. For f%ck sakes we are no better if we can’t rise above it. For better or worse, Mike, you are in the command position to do something…. or at lleast say something. Glad you feel like blowing the oppurtunity…. and god damn it where the hell is your auto-spell checker for posting comments. Usability my eye!!!! See you at the next Six Flags kegger.

That sucks. Try this next time. It’s kind of gross (depends how you look at it, but hey you have to do what you have to do.)

Wait for the right moment and then yell “I’m going to hurrle!” (Make sure it’s believeable)

Then make a big deal like your trying to make it to your “lunch” bag which is naturally located in the pouch of this guy’s seat. After some considerable bumping, wrestling and wrangling of his seat - naturally you can’t get to it, then lean forward onto his seat, asking him for his own bag. (Don’t forget the act - it’s key)

Hopefully with this impending disaster, he’ll naturally raise his seat, more as a defensive shield than anything, against your … well, you get the idea.

Might instantly kill your chance of getting the number of that lady you’ve been staring at on the plane the whole time, but hey - you will at least feel triumpant against the inflight injustice that was bestowed upon you.

Plus it makes for a good bar story.

More fallacies related to the real subject:

“I don’t think I’m at fault if I tailgate you; it’s the automobile manufacturers’ fault. They really should have better proximity detection and limiting devices in cars these days. After all, it’s 2006. Not to mention, I pay my taxes which pave the roads just like you.”

“I don’t think I’m at fault if I eavesdrop on the sensitive conversation you’re having. After all, even though you are talking quietly to avoid this, you are still in a public space, and you really should go somewhere totally private. It’s silly to hope for this sort of courtesy in a public place.”

“I don’t think I’m at fault if I grab a gigantic plate of a popular food at a buffet (like crab, steak, or general tso’s), leaving none for anyone else. Yeah, I could have probably done with 1/3 of the portion I took, but I paid to eat here just like you and that’s what I wanted to eat.”

Or you could have backed off.
Or you could have stopped listening.
Or you could have taken less food.
Because other people are important.
And it’s equally important in life to not be a dick.

I am very confused by those who are acting like it’s someone else’s responsibility to prevent them from being said dick. Geez… It sure is all about Number One up in this piece.

Take some personal responsibility. You don’t have to be walked on or make huge sacrifices to be courteous and think of others first. At least weigh the ratio between your comfort and someone else’s discomfort.

It’s like why dogs lick themselves: because they can. We are better than that. Even if you would believe we are all animals, we are still better than that. But who am I to condemn? Some would say that I’m a sinner no less.

Bottom line observation: just like privacy, common courtesy has gone out the window. Pity.

Sidenote: I actually kinda giggle inside that you were kicking his seat, Mike. I dunno why everyone takes that so seriously. Seems to me that you were being ornery, not malicious. :)

This is, definitely, the other side to this. Maybe I was the guy in the seat in front of Mike (but when I had this experience, it was a lady, or so I thought sitting in the seat behind me. No laptop either … but you never know.)

I have not read all the comments (just glanced at some of them) but as the guy in the front seat, this is what I felt:

I am feeling a little tired, this is the second leg of my journey. The first leg was 12 hours, I have to put up with this 2 more hours. I am not from the same timezone as you are. This is my sleep time. As soon as I can get a chance (even before cruising altitude) I stretch my legs (swollen, by now … and for fear of rasing a stink, I cannot even take my shoes off). It hits the bottom of the front seat. I need more space … I gingerly touch the button and push back. An inch or two. Not comfortable enough. Oh, what the heck, all the way.

Few minutes. A rude bump wakes me up. Turbulence, probably. Back to sleep. Another rude bump. Turbulence? Not at all. It is Mike’s knee. Oh well, I think, Mike is feeling restless, he will settle down soon.

Bump.

Bump, bump, bump.

Now I know he is doing it on purpose.

Well, whatever happened to courtesy and plane and simple etiquette? Mike, please just tell me what is bothering you, can we compromise somewhere in between? Too low for you too high for me? How about this, comfortable? How about giving me your pillow that you are not using? How about just keeping me awake by talking to me? Whatever. But if you don’t talk to me, how do I know? My eyes are not on the back of my head, mind you.

Well, I think Mike wants to be rude, so let me just be rude right back to him. I don’t need my back to be so reclined. I am small (5′8″, hardly 140 lbs), I can sleep inside a matchbox. But I cannot take this rudeness. I try to stretch my back further, more. No relenting. Talk to me, you neanderthal!

We are not miles apart, it does not take long distance charges or setting up Skype to do this. I am right here.

Till you have the guts (and the courtesy) to look me in my eyes and tell me what’s bothering you, my seat back stays as far back as it can go. Not that I need it to be so, but because you did not say “please”. We are not animals, but the burden of proof is on you: communicate, that’s what sets us apart.

Courtesy begets courtesy.

Post Script:

BTW, you don’t need to buy that knee defender, you already have one: your ability to speak. Even if you are deaf and dumb (apologies), there are means and ways to communicate, and places more important than a Blog.

Thanks, Mike. It is really heartening to hear that you would have let me sleep, if I had made it known that I badly needed it. Perhaps it would be heartening to you that I would have pulled my seat back up if you told me that you were having trouble getting some work done.

You are complaining about the guy in front, I am complaining about that girl in the back. But Hey!, neither of us had the courtesy to tell the botheror what was bothering us, we expected them to read our minds and do our beckoning, and we called it eiquette.

We did not talk when it mattered. Instead, we post stuff on a blog in the secureness of anonimity. Shame on both of us.

PS: Did not really mean to call you “neanderthal”, a thousand apologies. Hope it did not offend you.